Gottverlassen

[Einsteinchen]

Als Jesus betete: Mein Gott, warum hast du mich verlassen, war er da tatsächlich verlassen oder hat er nur den Psalm zitiert, der ja optimistisch endet.

Was ist die katholische Position dazu?

 

Ich gehe da von der These aus, daß Jesus immer authentisch ohne Sünde war und er nur Wahres reden konnte.

bearbeitet 1. August 2015 von Einsteinchen

[helmut]

Als Jesus betete: Mein Gott, warum hast du mich verlassen, war er da tatsächlich verlassen oder hat er nur den Psalm zitiert, der ja optimistisch endet.

Was ist die katholische Position dazu?

 

Ich gehe da von der These aus, daß Jesus immer authentisch ohne Sünde war und er nur Wahres reden konnte.

vielleicht konnte er als wahrer mensch die theodizee auch nicht auflösen.

[Katharer]

Als Jesus betete: Mein Gott, warum hast du mich verlassen, war er da tatsächlich verlassen oder hat er nur den Psalm zitiert, der ja optimistisch endet.

Was ist die katholische Position dazu?

 

Ich gehe da von der These aus, daß Jesus immer authentisch ohne Sünde war und er nur Wahres reden konnte.

Ich weiß nicht genau wie die die katholische Position in dieser Frage aussieht. Wenn Jesus "wahrer Gott und wahrer Mensch" war, dann ist sein Ausspruch "mein Gott, warum hast du mich verlassen" sehr irritierend - denn als "wahrer Gott" hätte er sich ja selbst verlassen. Es gibt da m.M.n. nur eine logische Erklärung: Er war zu diesem Zeitpunkt "nur" wahrer Mensch und nicht beides, denn als Gott konnte er nicht sterben. Vielleicht hat man ihm ja auch nur diesen Psalm in den Mund gelegt, weil es so besser in ein theologisches Konzept passte.

[Bruno-Maria Schulz]

Jesus sagte sterbend vom Kreuz herab: "Mein Gott, mein Gott, warum hast Du mich verlassen?“ ("Eloï, Eloï, lema sabachtani?") Mk 15,34 + Mt 27,46. Ich schrieb in Foren vor vielen Jahren das dazu und auch in meinem englischsprachigen "MailCircle":

........diese Gottferne, die der tiefgläubige Christ oft schmerzlich brennend empfindet ist die Gleiche die Christus empfand in den Minuten seines Todes, als er rief: VATER, VATER, WARUM HAST DU MICH VERLASSEN.

Dies war nicht der Schmerz des Zweifels an Gott! Es war vielmehr der, dem gläubigen Christen sehr wohlbekannte Schmerz der Gottferne. Christus war in diesem Moment voll und ganz Mensch - ebenso wie bei seinem Gebet auf dem Ölberg LASS DIESEN KELCH AN MIR VORÜBERGEHEN; wobei Christus jedoch anfügte, -NICHT MEIN, SONDERN DEIN WILLE GESCHEHE. Der Dreieinige Gott weiß um den Schmerz dieser Gottferne. Christus hat sie erlebt. Sie war Teil Seiner freiwillig und aus Liebe zu uns eingegangenen, unsagbaren Passion. Nur diese Gottferne jedoch, motiviert unseren Glauben, denn wäre sie nicht, bräuchten wir keinen Glauben; hätten volles Wissen, bräuchten keine Erde zur Bewährung; lebten in Gottes Herrlichkeit! In fühlbarer Nähe Gottes ist Glaube nicht nötig; ist Gott Realität des Himmels. Wir hätten dann allerdings auch nicht den Himmel verdient. Das Feld der Bewährung, des Verdienstes und der Platz auf dem wir Schätze im Himmel sammeln können, ist hier. Die Erde.

Wir sind noch nicht in Gottes Herrlichkeit, sondern HIER um uns zu bewähren; würdig zu werden dorthin zu kommen, wes unseres Schöpfers ist und wo Christus für uns einen Platz verwahrt, sofern wir ihn anstreben.....

 

......diese Gottferne die Christus ebenso schmerzlich am Kreuz erfuhr, als er verzweifelt rief: VATER - VATER - WARUM HAST DU MICH VERLASSEN. Gott hatte Jesus verlassen, damit dieser ganz Mensch war, in der Stunde Seines Todes - dem vorletzten Schritt der Erlösung! Christus war in diesem Augenblick Mensch, wie wir. Der Lehrsatz des Heiligen Ambrosius, dem großen Kirchenlehrer (in Trier 339 geboren; gestorben als Bischof von Mailand 397) Christus war ganz Gott und ganz Mensch, füllt Bände der Christlichen Literatur. Jesus Christus erlebte so den Schrecken des Todes - gleichzeitig aber das Ende Seiner Leiden und des Erlösungswerkes.

Wie entsetzlich das Geschehen - wie groß unsere Schuld, Gottes Sohn zu Tode zu foltern, wie groß die Schuld des Menschen, dass Gott selbst sich hingab in Gestalt seines menschgewordenen Selbst. Wie erlösend für uns wie für Christus, das Ende der Leiden und die Erfüllung der Rettung der Welt gekommen zu sehen in den nun folgenden Worten

ES IST VOLLBRACHT.

Und Christus neigte sein Haupt, und begab sich auf den Weg den wir alle gehen werden - durch das Tor des Todes.

Die Liebe Gottes für die Menschen ist unendlich. So unendlich, dass Gott sich für Solches hingab. Die Erkenntnis des römischen Hauptmannes, der Zeuge des Geschehens war und ausrief - wahrlich - dies ist Gottes Sohn

- muss UNSERE Erkenntnis sein in unendlicher Dankbarkeit!

Christus ging nun hinüber zu seinem Vater und unserem Vater - zu Gott - von dem Christus sagte; ER UND ICH SIND EINES. Jesus Christus, Gottes Sohn und Eines mit Gott, rief: IN DEINE HÄNDE EMPFEHLE ICH MEINEN GEIST und starb.

Mit Jesu Auferstehung am Dritten Tag, war das Erlösungswerk vollkommen.

 

Dazu ist hier

https://www.bibelkommentare.de/index.php?page=qa&answer_id=49

eine weitere Antwort

bearbeitet 1. August 2015 von Bruno-Maria Schulz

[Bruno-Maria Schulz]

Ich habe gerade einen Fehler entdeck in meinem obigem Text. Statt

"Gott hatte Jesus verlassen, damit dieser ganz Mensch war, in der Stunde Seines Todes - dem vorletzten Schritt der Erlösung!"

steht in meinem englischen Originaltext im MailCircle:

........Gott der Vater und der Heilige Geist hatte Jesus verlassen, damit dieser ganz Mensch war, in der Stunde Seines Todes - dem vorletzten Schritt der Erlösung!

Da Christus immer ganz Gott und ganz Mensch war und Eines mit Gott in der allerheiligsten Trinität, durchlebte hier in diesem Moment, Gott in Dreieinigkeit des Menschen Schmerz der Gottferne.......

[Mecky]

Erst, wenn man von Gott Vater und dem Hl. Geist verlassen ist, ist man ganz Mensch?

[Long John Silver]

Als Jesus betete: Mein Gott, warum hast du mich verlassen, war er da tatsächlich verlassen oder hat er nur den Psalm zitiert, der ja optimistisch endet.

Was ist die katholische Position dazu?

 

Ich gehe da von der These aus, daß Jesus immer authentisch ohne Sünde war und er nur Wahres reden konnte.

 

Er hat meines Erachtens den Psalm zitiert. Scheint mir einleuchtend, dass er in seiner Todesstunde auf Rituelles zurueck griff, das fuer ihn und die anderen Juden, die es hoerten, von Bedeutung war. Der gesamte Inhalt des Psalmes passt auch.

 

Mehr wuerde ich da nicht hinein interpretieren.

(Da das aber keine katholische Position ist, kann man es auch loeschen).

bearbeitet 2. August 2015 von Long John Silver

[Petrus]

Als Jesus betete: Mein Gott, warum hast du mich verlassen, war er da tatsächlich verlassen oder hat er nur den Psalm zitiert, der ja optimistisch endet.

meine Meinung: ja, er hat im Sterben den Anfang von Psalm 22 gebetet.

[Petrus]

Ich habe gerade einen Fehler entdeck in meinem obigem Text.

macht doch nix, Bruno.

 

Bei uns dürfen sogar ausgeschiedene Mitglieder (siehe Deine Selbstbezeichnung) Fehler machen.

[Einsteinchen]

 

Als Jesus betete: Mein Gott, warum hast du mich verlassen, war er da tatsächlich verlassen oder hat er nur den Psalm zitiert, der ja optimistisch endet.

Was ist die katholische Position dazu?

 

Ich gehe da von der These aus, daß Jesus immer authentisch ohne Sünde war und er nur Wahres reden konnte.

 

Er hat meines Erachtens den Psalm zitiert. Scheint mir einleuchtend, dass er in seiner Todesstunde auf Rituelles zurueck griff, das fuer ihn und die anderen Juden, die es hoerten, von Bedeutung war. Der gesamte Inhalt des Psalmes passt auch.

 

Mehr wuerde ich da nicht hinein interpretieren.

(Da das aber keine katholische Position ist, kann man es auch loeschen).

 

Das ist auch meine Meinung. Er war nie absolut verlassen.

[urdu]

 

Als Jesus betete: Mein Gott, warum hast du mich verlassen, war er da tatsächlich verlassen oder hat er nur den Psalm zitiert, der ja optimistisch endet.

Was ist die katholische Position dazu?

 

Ich gehe da von der These aus, daß Jesus immer authentisch ohne Sünde war und er nur Wahres reden konnte.

Ich weiß nicht genau wie die die katholische Position in dieser Frage aussieht. Wenn Jesus "wahrer Gott und wahrer Mensch" war, dann ist sein Ausspruch "mein Gott, warum hast du mich verlassen" sehr irritierend - denn als "wahrer Gott" hätte er sich ja selbst verlassen. Es gibt da m.M.n. nur eine logische Erklärung: Er war zu diesem Zeitpunkt "nur" wahrer Mensch und nicht beides, denn als Gott konnte er nicht sterben. Vielleicht hat man ihm ja auch nur diesen Psalm in den Mund gelegt, weil es so besser in ein theologisches Konzept passte.

 

Tja.

Einerseits: Natürlich hat der Autor Jesus den Psalm in den Mund gelegt. Ich glaub nicht, dass ein Gekreuzigter in seiner Situation noch genug Kraft zum Reden hatte.

Andererseits: Die Meinung, Gott habe, da er ja nicht leiden und sterben könne, den Menschen Jesus vor seinem Leiden verlassen, wurde im Lauf der Kirchengeschichte öfters vertreten, ist aber theologisch nicht haltbar: Dann wäre ja der Mensch im buchstäblichen Sinn des Wortes "von Gott verlassen"!

[Bruno-Maria Schulz]

falls erlaubt; hier mein heutiger Beitrag in MailCircle zum Thema:

Am 03.08.2015 um 11:58 schrieb Dr. Florence Odhiambo:

Hello Bruno,
Matthew 27:46: …“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
These same words are also found in Psalm 22:2. which also has the following: "For He has not spurned or disdained the misery of this poor wretch, Did not turn away from me, but heard me when I cried out."

Same you quoted it in English, I quote it here again in German:
Mein Gott, mein Gott, warum hast du mich verlassen...

And I should think belief would come to the conclusion of a clear NO, because the Psalm goes on:
„bist fern von meiner Rettung, den Worten meines Gestöhns?" = and during the night with my prayers there is no silence to me.

Now, this moment Jesus was in highest (human) agony, pain and a fear known by humans only; the fear of walking through that door called „death“.

Now this agony Jesus never had in His life, but here and now He went voluntarily through it - dying on the Cross in unbelievably painful agony, He went through it, to be „one“ with us HIS HUMANS God loved so much, that He ….. (John 3,16).
But Christ went through this in that moment, when He fulfilled His salvation to the very peak. No-one took His life, but He gave it voluntarily (John 10,18). In that moment God in God - Light from Light, tue God from true God, wouldn’t think of citing a Psalm, but much more so of His very agony, pain and dying anguishes.

Florence wrote:
It is possible that Jesus was praying this psalm and directing our attention to it knowing that it ends in victory?

No! Sorry for the hard sounding „NO“ (which is a personal statement and never a generally valid) but in that moment, Jesus was in the highest agony any human even could be.

Florence wrote:
…..God did not forsake Jesus; Everything I know about God does not allow me to think any different.

Everything we all know about God, doesn’t allow us to think that God ever leaves us - if we cling to God. which is up to us. But this is a very exceptional situation, the world say but once only - the very peak of our salvation, which ended by „It Is Fulfilled“ crowned and verified by Jesus Christ’s resurrection.

Am 03.08.2015 um 14:17 schrieb Padrej-JayBunting:

The Biblical Verse for God not looking upon sin comes from the Old Testament prophesy of Habakkuk 1:12 „Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die. You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct. 13Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they? 14Why have You made men like the fish of the sea, Like creeping things without a ruler over them?…“

But here it’s clear, that God doesn’t look at sin WITH FAVOUR, as God condemns sin.
Yes, Jesus took upon Himself our sins , but still; Jesus was with no sin. So, I wonder why we should find the reason of the core of Matthew 27:46 (God veiling His face) in elder Psalms, which of course where predictions of what will be and happen.

Jay wrote:
Jesus was also quoting Psalm 22, one of the Messianic psalms that would cause the listeners to realize that he was fulfilling another prophesy.

As mentioned before; In this exceptional case the world experienced and went through but one single time, I shouldn’t think Christ would again and finally demonstrate another fulfilling of prophesies. He who didn’t understand by this point, never would.

Yours
Bruno
Bild Matthew 27:46

[Bruno-Maria Schulz]

wenn Englisch erlaubt - hier meine heutige Rückantwort auf einen Einwand zum obiger Eingabe im USA-MailCircle:

blau sind die Zitate

Am 03.08.2015 um 22:10 schrieb Tom Qualey:

Hold on a minute, Bruno… I understand that you do not agree with Florence, and that would also mean you do not agree with me for complimenting Florence on what I think was her excellent answer. But, just saying "No" - based on a personal opinion, without any reference to refute our statement makes no sense to me.

Oh, it does make a lot of sense, when we try and put ourselves into the state and place of the Crucified - who here to the secular world of the time, was just one of the many crucified. Think ourselves into Christ with His Pains and aches and despair to an extend we won’t ever go through and can’t ever imagine, not even near it. Though Jesus is and was - even as fully human, also fully God. But in the dreadful moment when God the Father veiled His face; Jesus’ agony was at it’s peak - and His Passion fulfilled and done as Christ said two words later. Despair replaced any other thought so much, that Jesus cried out loud >God, (in other translations Father) why have You forsaken me?<. Here we truly can’t say Jesus prayed. To pray mans to concentrate all senses devote upon God. Impossible when bearing the outmost pains any human being has ever suffered.
In this very moment, when Jesus was in the highest agony any human even could be, he felt like you and me - merely human.

I wonder if anyone of us even had and even can remember any pain that covered and overlayed all our senses and thoughts. (I for one remember the pains of the last two of my three heart-attacks). In this moment we simply couldn’d and where unable to pray (which I did during my first heart attack, when I thought to die now, but had no severe pangs). So, again: No, Jesus was not praying this psalm, but far more so, He cried it out - same as any merely human Saint would.

Since Jesus Christ, being fully God and fully Human; even as a twelve years old, knew the Scriptures and taught the scribes, all Psalms certainly where familiar to Him and daily talk. Hence, Jesus did not always when He spoke; pray. Not everything Jesus said was a prayer, even when He cited prayers or when He spoke to God The Father. When Moses and Eliah spoke to Christ in His Transfiguration Matthew 17,3, they spoke to Jesus the God in God, but did not pray, whilst when we speak to God, it’s always prayer.
Of course Jesus countless times used words and phrases of the Holy Scriptures and Psalms, so why not in His deepest agony. And why must we see this out cry as "Jesus was praying this psalm“?
And besides; the content of this Psalm is a very personal one of the psalmist’s perspective who thinks, that God has abandoned him, for God fails to answer his cry for help. Yes, it’s offered as prayer, though it contradicts very much Christian conviction; GOD NEVER LEAVES US - unless if we with sin and disbelieve „force" God to leave us.

Here is a reference that confirms the reasonableness of believing Christ was quoting Psalm 22: http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/do-jesus-words-from-the-cross-my-god-my-god-why-have-you-forsaken-me-mean-that-god-th

This most unsatisfactory answer of CAF’s apologist, doesn’t say anything else but what had I said in last post and repeated here, but tells very superficially what anyone knows anyhow, without any theological or human depth, nor deeper explanation.

Jesus Christ being God in God, knows that God the Father and The Holy spirit has not left and abandoned Him (anyhow impossible within the Most Holy Trinity), but far more so forsaken Him for just this moment, when Jesus' Salvation of the world through His passion He went through voluntarily, was at it’s peak.
Jesus had never in His life among us, experience God’s absence, but in this very moment He did. The Prayers on the Mount of Olives in Luke 22,42 before the taking of Christ, were a very much different situation.

Now here in http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Apr2004/Feature1.asp
Jesus cry is also told as prayer. Prayers like this then would not end with a question-mark (?) It it would have been a prayer, Jesus would have prayed PLEASE DON’T LEAVE ME! but never stated WHY DID YOU LEAVE ME?

So, really, unless you have something with more substance - how about just saying, "Maybe"? This at least provides you with a way to climb back from the limb I think you have walkput yourself on... ;-)

Oh, I won’t. Ever more so, as this led here and there to treadful misunderstandings, such as years ago I read in a forum the opinion, „all through Jesus’ life, Jesus was though fully human, also God in God. Thus, according to many Biblical verses - such as Satan cited Psalm 91,11-12 when he tempted Jesus: For he will order his angels to protect You in all You do. They will lift You up in their hands, so Your foot will not strike a stone. Hence Christ never really suffered fully the agony and pains mere humans do. So, His cry on the cross was praying Psalm 22,1“.

„Just a prayer“ runs danger to belittle Jesus Passion altogether, which is a huge misinterpretation of Christ’s deed.

Even as a child I opposed the thought of „we witness here Jesus citing the prayer in Psalm 22,1“ for the above stated reasons. At the time I of course didn’t think further, but just thought "one isn’t able to PRAY when dying of pain".

There is another mistake we must not commit either: The assumption that THE HUMAN Jesus Christ here in this word of Mark 15,34 Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” doubted that moment God. For Jesus called upon His Father - God the Father. Still; Jesus here in this moment had to be alone. Really alone - even left alone by God. So this cite can’t be a prayer. Though it is and contains much. Very much! Among a library of contents, it’s also God’s recognition of our despair. A despair we even are allowed to feel in extreme situations. But this swift and short breaking of our togetherness with the loving Father who even loves us in extremest despair, is never the end - it’s the beginning of an eternal love.

Yours
Bruno
Our Picture # 1947:
Tauberbischofsheim altar scene; The Crucifixion, detail - Matthias Grünewald 1525

bearbeitet 4. August 2015 von Bruno-Maria Schulz

[Bruno-Maria Schulz]

lasst mich hier abschließend diesehr gute MailCircle-Antwort (blau) vom kath. Pfarrer John Brandeneth und dem anglik. Bischof Jay Bunting mit meiner heutigen Antwort (schwarz) hier einfügen - Beide "blauen" gekürzt.

Am 05.08.2015 um 13:54 schrieb Fr. John Brandereth:

…….certain quotations in our culture, whether secular or religious, are known and even memorized because of their importance....

If only people would really see OUR FATHER THOU ART IN HEAVEN AS a importance of their life. Most don’t. Though it's the one and only importance.

This was true of the psalms in Jesus time. He needed only to say the first line, and most Jews would have known the rest, or at least the message.

Well, when I was a kid, most people - in believers or not, did know the most important biblical verses. But today people are taught, that „The Bible is scientifically absurd at every turn. So how is this "reliable“? - see among hundreds of sites this one:
http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-bible-reliable

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, a messianic psalm that vividly describes the agony the suffering servant (Jesus) would endure. God the Father did not abandon his Son in his Son’s suffering but allowed him in his humanity to experience the sense of divine abandonment that humans often feel during times of need, and especially when in sin.

That’s what I said, but „my English“ (which of course is better than yours) told it a bit crosswise ;-)
Though, as St. Paul said, Jesus took all sins upon Himself. Which of course was to God the Father as to God the Son a terrible disgrace. So, as I tried to put it, „God veiled His face“ - turned away). This of course must to Gd The Son appear as forsaken; why have You forsaken Me. Good your word "allowed Him in His Humanity to experience the sense of divine abandonment“. This actually explains the whole complex.
A feeling all of us are overwhelmed with, some odd times in our life.

Just as we often feel that God has abandoned us when we are suffering (even though this isn’t the case), so the Son of God in his humanity experienced that.aspect of human suffering as well. He died for our sins, and the weight of those sins—and thus the feeling of abandonment—must have been exceedingly heavy at that point.

Instead of must have been, you might well put „WAS". That’s what I tried to express, but my English….

By quoting this psalm, Jesus shows that he is the fulfillment of that prophecy and that he will be vindicated,

I have to add here the translation in real language, which is >gerechtfertigt< so I know later when re-reading ;-)

which is evident in the psalm’s triumphant ending.

It is, as the Psalmist ends by: 22,31 They will come and tell about His saving deeds (righteousness) and will tell a future generation what He has accomplished.

Now - the Psalmist was a mere human being, stated in Psalm 22,6 But I am a worm. Jesus though was fully God and fully human. But as you wrote in a stroke of a theological genius: "God the Father allowed his Son in His humanity to experience the sense of divine abandonment that humans often feel“.

As was pointed out by Jay, this was probably the only time in Jesus' life that he ever felt abandoned.

Of yes - of course so! As Christ never was abandoned, but to fulfill and accomplish the Salvation, had to be in this moment.

Why would he who was fully human and fully divine NOT feel the emotion of being abandoned???

Christ, bein the Son of God and seeing God of course would feel and even see The Father’s abandonment as the only one ever of earth He would! We only imagine it, Christ of course sees it.

(This Bruno rightly point out) If anyone is in deep pain they feel the whole world has abandoned them.

Right. But what astonished me terribly was, that even real believers said, concerning the Death of our son „Did you then not loos believe?!“
NO! I was even nearer to God in the Moment the docs confirmed that he is dying, then ever before. Beliefe didn’t weaken in the least!

As Jay pointed out God cannot look on sin, The scriptures also tell us that Jesus took on sin and became sin so that we could be the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21) If Jesus took on our sin, how could God look at him if the scriptures also tell us that God cannot look upon it?

That’s what I meant when I said "God veiled His face“.
Now let me serve with a very silly and ever so childish comparison:
When Dad veils his face, the toddler thinks Dad is gone and cries. The child might even forget his pain, despair and agony - more hurting is: DAD’S GONE:
A silly comparison - I know, but well - God might allow me this ;-)

Even though God never really left the side of Jesus, Jesus felt that abandonment so that we did not have to.

Exactly. Good you speak a wee bit better English than I do ;-)

…….The truth is that the Pharisees did hate Jesus, and He rightly isn’t known for showing them a great deal of grace. He called them out for their hypocrisy. He exposed their inner tombs.

Ha - great. I so often said, that disbelievers to me seem like the dead aside and among us ;-)

But the hatred they felt for Him wasn’t mere sour grapes at His approval rating, nor was it as principled as mere evil versus good. It was rather more craven. They hated Jesus not because He called them names, but because He threatened their security, prestige and income. He was going to ruin everything they had worked so hard for, and getting everybody killed.

Any difference to today?

All the rest you wrote, I’ll keep as treasure.

I do enjoy reading what you all post, however I felt I had to jump in on this to guide it back to where it should be.

Which you ought to do more often ;-)

Am 05.08.2015 um 14:04 schrieb padrej Jay Bunting:

Just as St. Theresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, and St. John Climacus point out we feel abandoned when God is closest to us. Jesus in his humanity was experiencing abandonment.…

That’s what I said in „New English“ ;-D

Yours
Bruno